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[22:39] (@ball_cock): soo hows it looking 4 u getting 2 Uni this weekend considering the fuel situation [22:39] (@ball_cock): ?? [22:39] : lol [22:39] : I can get there [22:39] : Just depends if theres anyone else there [22:39] (@ball_cock): yeah thats a pint [22:39] (@ball_cock): point [22:40] (@ball_cock): well at least u'll b bale 2 settle in without loads of people around all trying 2 move in at the same time [22:40] (@ball_cock): I dont think the problem can last much longer [22:40] : no [22:40] : Still getting worse tho at the moment [22:41] (@ball_cock): its gonna b a hell of a job restocking the petrol stations but public attitude is definitely changing [22:41] (@ball_cock): including mine [22:41] (@ball_cock): its getting annoying now [22:42] (@ball_cock): well part of me wants 2 see the country completely devoid of fuel just 2 c what it'd b like with no cars, no busses etc, but the rest wants it 2 just all get back 2 normal [22:42] : Yeap, but then blairs blaming everyone else if u notice now [22:42] (@ball_cock): well not everyone else [22:42] (@ball_cock): I think he's dead right on this one [22:42] (@ball_cock): its defiantly unsafe to give in to a protest like this [22:43] (@ball_cock): and if he did I can see major problems in the future as people protest about anything to get what they want [22:43] : Why, his blaming everyone except himself. Also shame people who arn't using there car to do think can't carry on doing it [22:43] (@ball_cock): it'd b anarchy and definitely a major threat to democracy [22:43] > Yeah but he is going about it the wrong way, as he is lying about quite a few things [22:44] (@ball_cock): well what do u suggest he does? its quite definitely not his fault this time, he's not blocking the oil refineries [22:44] : He seems to forgotten that the newspapers no long print propaganda these days [22:44] (@ball_cock): well what do u suggest is the right way? [22:44] : Yeap but he is saying the protestors are threating people, yet not one of the driver spoken to he said that [22:45] (@ball_cock): no propaganda maybe but still biased [22:45] : Also he saying the oil refinery's are at fault, yet if they just remotely hurt someone it could start a riot [22:46] (@ball_cock): thats untrue... a lot of the drivers feel threatened and I've seen pictures of protesters intimidating drivers trying 2 persuade them not 2 leave, making insinuations that they'd regret it if they didnt support the protest [22:46] : Yet its not true at all ones, half the problem for the drivers is when the deliver the stuff really [22:47] : Also he trying to get the police to break the law in some places [22:47] (@ball_cock): also its not necessarily the blockades themselves, they're not that bothered about getting through the pickets its when they arrive at the petrol stations and are mey by unorganised gangs who threaten them, and that has actually happened 2day [22:48] : Yeah, but he said nothing about that [22:48] (@ball_cock): the police haven't broken the law at all by clearing protesters from obstructing the roads, which is all they've done [22:48] (@ball_cock): thats what he means saying the drivers feel threatened [22:48] (@ball_cock): anyway you still haven't suggested what you think would be the right thing for him to do yet [22:49] : Yet Blair is said in a speech they should be all removed at that the police need lots of force to remove them, yet no force at all was used, infact they were cheering tankers out at most places [22:49] (@ball_cock): that's not what he said at all [22:50] (@ball_cock): nor whatv happened [22:50] : He should for a start admit the the protestors have made their point and get parliament back, even if they do nothing [22:50] (@ball_cock): all he said was that the police could use all powers available to ensure there was no obstruction to the tankers leaving the depots and refineries [22:50] (@ball_cock): what's parliament going to do [22:50] : Also say about the emergency supplies but don't say the protestors are stopping this [22:51] : Yeah but it would look like there listening [22:51] (@ball_cock): they're allowing fuel for ambulances, fire engines, etc, but what's the point if the paramedics / firemen cant get fuel for their cars to get into work [22:52] (@ball_cock): and also who are a bunch of disorganised protesters to decide what services are essential and what arent [22:52] : but they are letting that through, as they have said they can go to certain garages where you show your id card and can fill up [22:52] : But they are organised in this case [22:52] : Else they would have broken the law by now [22:53] (@ball_cock): like why hasnt social workers, home care staff, meals-on-wheels, district nurses or GPs had fuel, are they not essential to many people? [22:53] : Yes but they are included in an emergcy system set up by the government [22:54] (@ball_cock): yes but thats only in certain areas and often these staff dont have enough fuel 2 get them 2 the nearest garage which has fuel for them [22:54] (@ball_cock): doesnt matter what system they're in the protesters are still preventing them from getting fuel [22:55] : Yes but there is government stocks which have only been realsed today and should have been released on monday [22:55] : But they are not [22:55] (@ball_cock): 'released', from where? [22:55] (@ball_cock): and by what means [22:56] (@ball_cock): very difficult to move fuel around at a moments notice, especially from emergency supplies, I mean the government dont own their own tankers [22:56] : Well they are army base etc which have stocks of fuels, places stored around the country in government places [22:56] : The army does [22:56] (@ball_cock): and most of the oil company's are stuck in the depots waiting to leave there [22:56] : No there not there quite a few which turned back before going in [22:57] (@ball_cock): yes but again they cant be released at a moment's notice, they do have regular duties which cannot be abandoned [22:57] : An army spokesman said it has its own fuel distribution system, with fuel dumps around the UK. [22:57] (@ball_cock): if they could this would require more spending on the military which couldn't be paid for if Blair cuts fuel tax as I'm sure you're suggesting [22:58] : Yes but they can, its set up years ago by the torrys for such a shortage, its just the government don't seem to have taken it to seriously, I mean Blair was even at London until 2 days into the problem [22:58] (@ball_cock): yes it does, but again it cant be mobalised immediately, the 80 or so tankers have to me bobalised and deployed first, and even then its not necessarily the right fuel [22:59] : yes but it takes about a day to get it running [22:59] (@ball_cock): if its military dumps its likely to contain a lot of derv and heavy fuel oil but not much regular unleaded which is what most people need [22:59] : 3 days have passed and they not even started it [22:59] : It looks to me as his holding it back a bit just to get more people against them [22:59] (@ball_cock): doesnt matter how long if its not the right fule [22:59] (@ball_cock): fuel [23:00] > Its is though [23:00] (@ball_cock): right for what? [23:00] : Quote from bbc news [23:00] : And the army has confirmed it is on standby, with its petrol tankers being moved around the country so they are in a position to move fuel if the government tells them to. [23:00] : An army spokesman said it has its own fuel distribution system, with fuel dumps around the UK. [23:00] : For emergency service etc [23:00] : Yes but u also forget he has billions [23:00] (@ball_cock): I dont think there are many warships or fighter planes in the queues for fuel, I certainly didnt see any anyway [23:01] : yet dropping it by 2p will take a few million from them that they "should" not have know they would have got [23:01] : Well so his speeches say [23:01] : Yes but its stock for such a problem [23:02] : These things as I keep saying were set up years ago, theres underground telephone exchanges that can run weeks on end with no power all still here from the emergency plans [23:02] (@ball_cock): but its not in the right places [23:03] (@ball_cock): you cannot simply order the army to deliver fuel to wherever you like within like a few hours notice [23:03] : You can, its been setup so, you can get them to do it within a day or so [23:03] (@ball_cock): they need to organise drivers for their tankers, get them to where they're needed, then load up the tankers etc [23:03] : Its not even been started yet though [23:04] : Yes but its all planned out [23:04] (@ball_cock): the very legistics of getting the ball rolling will have taken since Monday which is when the protest really started to cause problems [23:04] : Look even BT has an emergency plan running from yesterday to do with communications [23:04] (@ball_cock): yes it has started get your facts right [23:04] (@ball_cock): the tankers have been deployed throughout the day and are still doing now [23:04] : No it hasn't, he has not given authorization [23:05] (@ball_cock): bollocks [23:05] : if the government tells them to. [23:05] (@ball_cock): the 80 available military tankers are being deployed as we speak, so the news said about half an hour ago, and some are already in position [23:05] : Yes but the government has yet to authorize it [23:06] : A quote from the news, update 5 min ago [23:06] : Another one [23:06] : Tankers have been crossing blockades at refineries since Tuesday evening delivering the first drops of fuel to emergency services via 2,500 designated garages. [23:06] : See the plan [23:07] (@ball_cock): they're being deployed ready for instructions and will be collecting fuel as soon as suitable personnel can be arranged and brought to the sites [23:07] : yes, but this plan was only called into action today, why not a few days ago@? [23:07] (@ball_cock): the plan was only ANNOUNCED today [23:08] (@ball_cock): appeals for the protesters to see sense were the plan yesterday and Monday [23:08] : yes but the plan is a law dating back from the cold war [23:09] (@ball_cock): but unfortunately the protesters dont seem to realise that they're not going to get anywhere now [23:09] : A plan which should be up and running within 1/2 a day [23:09] (@ball_cock): they've made their point, it doesnt take blair to announce that [23:09] : Tony Blair made a real bugger of it, I now the protestors are wrong now [23:10] (@ball_cock): what does that second sentence mean? [23:10] (@ball_cock): well that second part of the sentence [23:10] (@ball_cock): ? [23:10] (@ball_cock): I dont see how he's made a bugger of it [23:10] : Sorry yes I agree with you that the protestors should give up [23:10] : Well [23:10] : 1) his not recalled the government [23:11] > 2) HE took 2 days to even get into London [23:11] : 3) he blaming OPEC [23:12] (@ball_cock): he's stuck to the policy of not lowering taxes simply to appease a protest, that is completely against all democratic principles and he cannot announce an emergency budget for the same reason, it would be anarchy if he did [23:12] : 4) Taking time of emergency plans [23:12] : Yes but he could at least recall the goverment for tokenism, if he had done that the blockade would have stopped by now [23:13] (@ball_cock): 1) the government members concerned have been holding meetings with all other government members who decided to attend in downing street, full cabinet meetings have been going on and a scheduled full cabinet meeting will take place tomorrow [23:13] : 5) Lying about the amount of force needed [23:13] : Yes but why not today, recalling parliament would have sorted it out [23:14] (@ball_cock): 2) how will him being in London help, he can make statements from anywhere, and I thought BT were supposed to allow people to communicate? [23:14] : 6) Yes but then again it tokenism and looks like he is taking notice of people [23:14] : sorry not 6 there [23:14] : 6) Taking his time over statements [23:14] (@ball_cock): 3) OPEC rising oil prices is the cause of the current high levels, duty levels are lower now than under the Tories that is an indisputable fact [23:16] (@ball_cock): 4) if the protesters had seen sense and not continued the protests once it was clear they would not have any immediate concessions made, as was the anticipated outcome, no emergency plans would have been needed [23:16] : Yes but then they should have taken action earlier to lower the price down, the price has been going up for a year and a half, yet they have not protested to OPEC until a few days ago [23:16] (@ball_cock): also the reasons I mentioned before about the logiest of distributing emergency supplies [23:17] : Yes but then the force of his speech only made the situation worse [23:17] : 7) Taking to much of a strong line against the protestors [23:18] (@ball_cock): 6) what's the point rushing statements when he can wait until the most relevant information is available, anyway what's more important, making press statements or actually doing something about the situation which he undoubtedly will have been doing causing him to be a bit late [23:18] : Yes but as I keep pointing out the things have been planned out be committees etc [23:18] : The point is it looks like he has noticed what they have been saying [23:18] : The statement had to wait until his spin doctors had seen it [23:20] (@ball_cock): 7) is it not the protesters who are preventing the fuel from flowing? In any case not once has he said, and not once has it happened, that the police have forced protesters back, unless they were actively forming a barricade obstructing the highways, which is illegal so the police are within their jurisdiction to do that [23:21] (@ball_cock): Any political party would have done that [23:21] : Yes but then he was acting like the were rioting, what about the London thing then, he did not make a strong a statement then [23:21] : Do you actually think he handled it the best way [23:21] (@ball_cock): Hague's comments will have been carefully planned by his equivalents to ensure it sounded most damning to the government with a general election imminent [23:22] : I haven't read hagyes comments yet [23:22] (@ball_cock): perhaps not the best way but I agree with his basic stance that emergency budgets cannot be made as a direct response to this protest [23:22] : Yes, but i don't think he should do that either [23:22] (@ball_cock): the comments about parliament reconvening [23:23] : What I think is that he has mismanaged the situation [23:23] : Well it should [23:23] (@ball_cock): good so we do agree in principle [23:23] : yes [23:23] (@ball_cock): perhaps, I think he underestimated the protesters' resilience [23:24] (@ball_cock): thinking they would disperse when he made clear that they would have no immediate concessions [23:24] : But i think he has fueled it [23:25] (@ball_cock): but I do think he's been unlucky that the tanker drivers are not willing to make deliveries [23:25] : Yes, but they are unwilling because they were not been protected once the deliveries were made [23:25] (@ball_cock): yes but the only way to avoid that would be not to say anything at all, and that wouldn't' help either [23:26] : Yes, but he could have to be seen to look a bit more caring then he did [23:26] (@ball_cock): the only way he could have avoided fueling it would have been to heed to their demands, and as we both agree that isnt an option, or at least not in the short term [23:26] (@ball_cock): true but no matter how caring the facts would have still been the same [23:27] (@ball_cock): the tanker drivers have been offered police officers in their cabs with them all the way rto making the deliveries [23:27] : Yes but if they had not had made the tough threats and brought back parliament the protest would have almost stopped Email morning after: ball_cock: anyway... just 2 conclude our petrol debate, I'll concede that Blair should have acted a bit more quickly and effectively than he did, but you must admit that his actual political line of not jumping into making sudden changes to fuel duty is the right decision for a democratic country. ball_cock: is that a fair conclusion? Ball_Cock: oh yeah and also that we both agree the protesters should really disperse now ball_cock: they've made their point pobice: Yeap that almost sums it all up. |
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